Accounting in the Cloud: Adapting to AI and the Software Evolution with Ross Phipps

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Transcript:

Laura: Welcome to the Dynamics Unwrapped Podcast. In these sessions, we’re going to hear from industry experts in the accounting and finance industry, as well as hear from experts in accounting software.

Now joining us today is the managing partner for Phipps Henson McAllister, Ross Phipps. Now Ross qualified as a chartered accountant back in 2007 which was also when he joined Phipps Henson McAllister, so he’s got many years of experience, which he uses to help advise his clients on switching to using cloud accounting software helping businesses to manage cash flow and analyse their accounts, all with the goal to help them grow and achieve their goals.

Now, outside of work, Ross is an avid sports fan, supporting Liverpool FC and also

coaching his local under 10s and under 11s cricket team and for him, seeing the team significantly improve over the last year, it’s been a real personal achievement. So, Ross, welcome!

Ross: Thank you very much. Thank you for having me, Laura!

Laura : No thank you for joining! It’s a pleasure to have you on. So obviously, I mentioned in the introduction you’re quite a sports fan. Unfortunately, you’re a Liverpool fan, but we’ll gloss over that quite quickly,

Ross: saying nothing at this moment…

Laura: Cricket, in particular, is obviously quite a big part of your life. I know you’ve even bowled on the Vegas strip in the road whilst pedestrians are crossing. So obviously, any chance that you get to play your ticket but what got you into coaching your local team?

Ross: Yeah, so I guess it’s actually quite an interesting story because obviously I played cricket since the age of 8- 9-10, a sport that I’ve been playing my entire life, and I love cricket and actually so my eldest Oscar. He started playing rugby a couple of years ago alongside cricket and really, I was out watching him, sort of doing his rugby coaching.

The coaches were basically struggling for additional coaches to help them out and one week, the head coach of his rugby team asked me to help out with the admin of just taking the register and filling out various bits of paperwork, which I said, Okay, that’s fine. I’ll stand there and do that. No problem at all. And then the week after, we went back to training, and said, oh, could you just do that again?

You know, she needs admins. Great, you know, really appreciate somebody doing that and I sort of turned said, Look, you know, I’m happy to be here, and I’ll happily help out in any way you can but the thought of doing more admin on the weekend, when I’ve got a whole week of doing admin, you know, in the office.

I Said is there anything else you want me to do instead of this, you know, can we pat this off to someone else, he said, Well, yeah, why don’t you just come and help me do a bit of rugby coaching.

So before I knew it, I was practically an assistant coach for and would have been a rugby team. And don’t get me wrong, I know a little bit about rugby. I played it as a child up to the age of about 16, but I found myself sort of embroiled in a rugby team very quickly. And of course, you know, as Oscar sort of went through, you know, under 7s and under 8s, sort of cricket, the team I play for, and where he trains at, which are bricks with in Northampton.

We had an email from the coach there, basically saying, Look, can anybody help out with a bit of coaching every now and again? You know, we struggle sometimes with the summer holidays. And I said, Yeah, I’ll happily help out with a bit of coaching.

Turned up for the under 9s initially, and after about three weeks, the head coach under 9s decided to hand over the position to me because he had other things to do on a Friday night. So before I knew it, I was suddenly thrown in at the deep end of doing under nines cricket coaching and trying to run the entire session, which was a bit of, you know, sort of, I quickly gave up the rugby because it got to a point way past what I my knowledge base was with, you know, I couldn’t coach how their children were going to Scrum and ruck and mold all that kind of stuff.

But, yeah, cricket, obviously I’m very passionate about, and I’ve just followed Oscar up into now under 10s and under 11s, which are now hardball matches. And, yeah, it’s a great thing to do.

I mean, I wanted to do it because in the day, people have given up so much time when I was young, in coaching me and looking after me, and I had some great experience playing cricket as a junior, you know, won some great competitions, got to visit some great places.

So just being able to give that back. And obviously, for me, I get to see my son and my daughter’s now started playing as well, but I get to see them both play and help them develop. As much as it’s hard coaching your own children, that’s probably one of the hardest they’ve always got something you know, that the whole guy knows, Daddy, I’m doing. You know, whatever you try and tell them, yeah, that’s the hardest bit about it. You need another coach to actually coach them, or you coach everybody else.

Laura: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I don’t think I would have wanted my dad to coach me swimming, I won’t lie, but that is really nice that that’s kind of how you fell into it, you know, with your kids. And it’s great like, it’s a great thing to do, and it’s great having a sport outside of work, I think, as well, especially for just like getting it gives you a break, doesn’t it from the office, and it’s a great.

Ross: It does, yeah, it is brilliant. And you do need, I think you need something. Everybody needs something to be able to focus on. And I think cricket. I mean, I play cricket. I play a bit of football and golf. I’ll play as many sports as I could get in and, you know, Oscar is similar to me. But yeah, cricket, in particular, is that sport. And yeah, we’ve had, we’ve had a bit of fun with it of late as well. So, yeah.

Laura: no, that’s nice. It’s nice that you can do it with your kids as well, which is really sweet. But obviously, I mean, you like, you say, you Coach, obviously your local cricket team, you’re obviously managing partner at your firm. So in quiet you know, some significant aspects of your life, you’re in leadership position. So you know, what do you think makes a great leader?

Ross: Yeah, it’s a good, very good question. I think there’s, there’s a few points for me when I’m trying to sort of identify what, what do I think works well, what’s, you know, what do I think we’re hopefully trying to get right at work. And I suppose even teaching the children, it’s, you know, it’s a similar sort of process and a similar mindset, I think that you’ve got to have.

But I think first and foremost, you’ve got to be clear about what you’re trying to achieve. You know, if you’re a leader in anything, you’ve got to, you just got to set out what it is that as a business, you know, what are the goals? What is it you’re there to do what you’re trying to accomplish, and making sure that everyone’s aware of that? You know, again, no different to cricket, you’ve got to tell people, tell the team what we’re trying to achieve over the course of the season.

You know, where do you want them to be? You know, what are you trying to get them to improve on? So those two things are, you know, I think it’s very important. And I think, I mean, the number one, I guess, and I suppose we should have started with it, is being open and honest with people.

I think that’s so important. You know, there is, I think the more that you’re willing to share and almost let your guard down a little bit, you know, I think people are very protective of sharing information that I think, you know, they maybe shouldn’t, but I think the more that you can and the more you’re willing to do that, I think the better the team, the team reacts and that kind of leads on to, you know, what makes a great leader, essentially having the right people around you.

And that’s been said by so many people so many times, but you’ve got to realize that you need a great team to be a great leader. You’ve got to have the people who can do all of those things that you can’t do, and I could be some of the things that you shouldn’t be doing, you know, find great people who are great at what they do, and get them in the right, you know, and getting them in the right sort of seats for you, and I guess for me.

And I don’t know whether this makes a great leader, but I always try and challenge sort of everything. I challenge whether we can do things better, pretty much all the time. I think my team at work is probably sick of that.

I don’t know whether the children are sick of it, but, you know, I’m a competitive person, you know. And even the 10s and elevens cricket, as much as it’s, you know, we want everyone to have a good time, you know, we also, I think people love winning, and that’s what you’re trying to do. You know, in business, you want to win. You want to succeed. So, yeah, I will look at everything and just, you know, what can we do better?  You know, as much as we, might have changed it a month ago, is this still the best we can do?

Laura: Yeah, absolutely. I think that’s, I think that’s a great thing because you do need to, you know, everything changes so fast, so you have to make sure that you’re always kind of there and changing and evolving. And that’s, you know, one of the biggest problems I reckon leaders probably face is change management and getting everyone else to get on board with that.

So I guess what you said earlier about being open and honest and, you know, allowing them to have a voice in that is great, because I think that certainly then helps with that change management piece. Yeah,

Ross: I don’t think, I don’t think the job’s ever finished. I don’t think you ever get and I imagine everyone says the same. You never, at that point, we go, yeah, we’re now perfect. Nothing’s ever perfect. It never will be. You’re just striving to be as close to that as you possibly can.

Laura: Yeah, absolutely. And I know that obviously for you, one of your big focuses for your organization, especially kind of in the last few years, was to get you know, as many of your clients onto cloud accounting software as you could, and I think you’ve been, you know, very successful in doing that.

So your clients that did move onto cloud accounting software, what benefits or improvements have they seen that’s had on their businesses?

Ross: Yeah, I mean our journey, I think the cloud probably started maybe 10 years ago. Now, it felt like a while and I was very strongly passionate for it. I could see some of the benefits of getting our clients on it, you know, certainly more so than probably they could.

I mean, practically forced, is a strong word, but I very much encourage all of my client base with a look. This isn’t really optional. You need to move we’ve got to get you on to better software. This is going to be so much better for you. And again, this is a few points. What have they seen?

The improvement of the accuracy of the books and records generally, what they’re keeping is just so much closer to the truth. You start introducing a bank feed, you know, and you’d suddenly know that the bank is going to reconcile largely, you know, there’s only so many things you can, you can, you know, you can post incorrectly before realizing that you could let the bank feed just roll itself and it will work.

The time is a big one. How much time it takes for them to prepare and complete manual records. I mean, you go back to the days of a red cash book, not saying that I had any, thankfully, clients that were doing that when I moved them over to cloud accounting.

But it does speed things up, and it is continually speeding things up as technology sort of improves. So accuracy and time are two big things, it’s actually saving people, saving clients, money. When you think about as much as there is, there is software costs, those software costs aren’t huge.

You know, they’re producing better quality records, which means technically, not technically does mean that their accountancy fee for preparing the accounts is, you know, it has to come down because we’re not taking as much time on it. But you know, in most situations, we’re actually being able to offer them different services that we couldn’t do before.

You know, giving them better information, giving them better advice, and maybe do more for them, you know, then they would have been able to either afford or would be willing to pay for before. So yeah, so there’s certainly that side of it. And again, you’ve then got probably benefits for clients in different industries, you know, the ones that have to take payments from customers on a regular basis.

It’s so much easier when you’ve got cloud accounting software and cloud accounting payment functionality to be able to do that quickly, the amount of the smaller clients that we deal with, just find it so easy, plumbers and electricians to go to someone’s house and then immediately invoice payment done, walk away where you’re thinking, if you’ve rewind five years, they go home, they then get onto, or probably give them a slip, probably five years ago with how much they owe. They then got to chase that money up, you know, 5-10-15-20, days later, and that process has changed.

There’s only money in their bank a lot quicker. And I think it’s just, it’s just people are just more aware of what’s going on in their business. They always, of course, a lot of business owners would always say they knew what was going on anyway.

They look at the bank statement, they’re aware of the money’s in and out. But and out, but they’ve got a far better position. You know, when we talk through the year-end accounts with them, what’s happened? It’s not like you get, you know, the, oh, didn’t expect that you know, sort of figure to be there, which you probably might have got 10 years ago.

You know, they know. They can see it. There, you know, they’re on the software. They can see what the P & L is mapping out to be. So, it just gives them more visibility, opens up to what they could then do with that information.

Laura: Yeah, yeah. No, absolutely. I mean, there’s a there’s loads of benefits that you just mentioned, and all are completely accurate. I mean, the fact that the biggest one, which I don’t know if people talk about enough, is that accuracy of data, because I don’t think people like to admit that maybe, as you said, 10 years ago, they didn’t have the kind of visibility that they have now.

And you know, all those paper trails that people must have had on their desks, I just imagine, like a massive stack of paper, and now you just don’t see that anywhere. And there are so many benefits of being on the cloud, and I think we’ve now got about 70 to 80% of our clients on there, but then you still get that resistance, and you still, even with all those benefits.

I mean, do you see that still with some of your clients, when you talk to them, there’s that bit of resistance still?

Ross: I think you do when you the person that is trying to talk them into it doesn’t have the knowledge or is comfortable enough to convince them that it’s the right move, you know, I go back to what I said at the start, when I sat down with my clients probably 10 years ago.

I said, Look, we’re going to move you, you know, this is, you know, for those that were say on some of the desktop software, you know, we’re moving into the cloud. There are going to be benefits, you know.

And almost you’ve got to believe me when I say this to you, that this needs to happen, you know, sort of approach and so I practically didn’t give my clients an option. Now, you know, I’ve got other partners here, you know. And even you know, my father, when he was working here, he is not, you know, he’s not. It is literate to the same level I am. He doesn’t really know a great deal about what’s going on in the software, you know well.

So he sort of saying to a client, you need to move any form of challenge they might give him. He’s then on the back foot a little bit because he doesn’t really have the answer to that. And he would, you know, almost rely on me trying to talk to his clients about it. And as much as, yes, they might know me a little bit. They don’t know me as much as my father knows them.

And so that makes it a very difficult, most convincing piece. So I think, yes, it is difficult where maybe either the person doesn’t fully believe themselves they need to do it or doesn’t have the knowledge to be able to back up the reasons why and be firm with it. I think if you’re firm with it, it will happen, you know, they trust us. We either accountants, or if they don’t trust us, then, you know, then there is a problem. But, yeah, that’s, I think it’s that.

Laura: yeah, yeah, sure. I mean, yeah. I think the fact that you are then their trusted advisor, and they trust what you’re saying certainly helps in that scenario. And then, obviously, you know, a finance software which has absolutely dominated the SMBs market, has obviously been zero, and I’m sure you’ve got many of your clients using it.

However, have you seen any limitations with your clients with that software? Has there been anything that you’ve seen where it’s been a bit of pushback?

Ross: Yeah, I think we’ve as a practice, have made the decision that we’re not going to be all eggs in one basket, and we’re not just going to, you know, throw everyone into one bit of software.

I just don’t believe that’s the right move. And I think that different clients are suited to different software, and we need to understand that. And, yeah, Xero, just like all of them, it’s, it’s got its strengths, but it does have weaknesses for certain clients, either in certain industries or of a certain size.

You know, the big thing, and this isn’t really just Xero, but a lot of those are a similar accounting software style. You know, stock was a massive problem. You know, when we were trying to move some of our clients onto some of the cloud accounting software.

So stock, you know, across all of them, has been very, very, very weak. It doesn’t do what you know, the desktop version of Sage 50 used to do even the stage in the cloud. And, you know, and that in itself, when we have got clients who were relying on that, you know, the sales orders, sales order, purchase order, stock process, it’s just not part of Xero. And then you’re suddenly trying to find add-ons that are going to work. And then some of the add-ons become very expensive. And then you start doubting, what was the point of moving, you know, you think, to a weight, find a better product, you know, that’s out there. Or, you know, is this just the wrong one, you know, just the wrong one entirely for them?

So, yeah, so stocks definitely have been a problem for a lot of those, you know, those sort of style software. I think the integrations, is it, I say it’s a strength and a weakness. There’s a strength in there so many integrations that it was Xero. But that’s also a problem because people don’t actually know which one to use. There has also been a problem with existing software.

You know, clients will have software links, maybe into sage 50, or whichever software they’re using, QuickBooks, desktop, all those software, and suddenly we’re saying, the right move to say something like Xero, like, well, this software doesn’t integrate with Xero, we’d have to build something else out, or whatever. And that becomes a problem, you know? So again, it’s this is why it doesn’t just fit every client. You know, the access control side of it. I’m always a little bit critical of that. I don’t think that’s great.

I think, you know, the user writes what people can and can’t do, and how you set those up. I think could be better in Xero, if I’m going to be brutally honest. And the payroll, I think, is another area that it struggles with. You know, it’s been okay, it’s not great, and I know they’re working on it to improve it, but it’s that area that, you know, I guess they’re things that you look at and say, this is, you know, why wouldn’t I recommend you using XERO. But for payroll, I’d ask them to use something else, you know, as a bolt-on.

But, yeah, it’s not for everybody, you know. And there are some quiet and for some it’s too big, a bit of software for you know, for the basic contractors, you know, it’s over complicating it.

There are easier software for that. And then for some of the bigger ones, you know, there is that level of it could get to too many transactions. The volume of transactions is a thing. I think it’s improved.

And it is a vast it’s a big number, but it will have a, you know, it will have that point where you can’t take it any you know, you can’t sort of get any more in. It will go get slower. It will have a problem. So, you know, if you’re dealing with a business, it’s going to grow massively.

And you’re looking at the volume of transactions now and thinking three years this could creak. You know, this isn’t what it’s geared up to do, then definitely Xero isn’t the right way to go.

Laura: yeah. No, absolutely. And every software has its strengths and weaknesses. Like you said, you said it perfectly earlier, nothing’s perfect. So. You know, everything you kind of have to give and take with certain things.

But I think the interesting one that you mentioned was obviously the stock because for, you know, a lot of companies, that can be a huge thing. So how have you kind of navigated, um, dealing with that challenge for your clients?

Ross: Well, we, I mean, we spend the time looking at what else is out there and understanding what the strengths and benefits of all of them are, you know, we don’t sit here and just go, Well, just make it work in Xero, you know, it’s okay if that’s not the right bit of software, what, what else is there and, you know, and what, what else can we recommend to clients? And that’s not just, I mean, it’s hard. It’s difficult because there are quite a lot out there.

There’s a lot to consider, and you’ve got to kind of keep on top of an ever-changing and developing, you know, software world, you know, we’ve got, I mean, even if the ones we’re using, there’s probably 3-4-5, or 6, I think, you know right now cloud software, and we need to know what, what’s going on with all of those, and how they’re developing, and then, okay, what’s coming into the market, what haven’t aren’t we aware about what’s its benefits? You know?

And a question I do tend to ask a lot of the software providers is, you know, why should I recommend yours over the others in the marketplace? You know, to my clients, what is it, what’s the niche, or, what is it you’re trying to, you know, what’s, you know, what’s your perfect client for this software?

Because we, you know, we need to know that we’re giving the right bit of, you know, the right advice to our clients and pointing them in the right direction. So, yeah, it’s just spending that time really just working out what’s out there.

Laura: Yeah, absolutely. And that’s hard in itself, because, like you said, the software, I mean, Business Central alone, has two wave updates every year, and that’s a whole host of new changes. So that’s just that software. And then I’m sure all the other software have constant changes as well.

So if you’re bearing in mind, that’s not your sole job either, you’ve also got, you know, all the advisory kind of parts that you do on the kind of accounts side, then to kind of take on the technology part as well is quite a big ask to be able to keep on top of that as well.

So it’s quite a lot, but like you said, it has huge benefits for your clients. Then moving on to cloud accounting software and making sure that you’re advising them on the right thing is obviously very critical to make sure they keep trusting you, I guess.

Ross: Yeah, I think it’s as an accountant, it’s a choice. Do you know how much you want to get involved in all of this? You know, you can quite easily partner up with someone who will happily recommend the right software to your client.

I’m sure you know, I feel that you know, for us, and I do have a little bit of an IT background, I want to be that person that is, you know, is aware of what’s out there and what we can recommend. But yes, it’s a time. It’s a lot of time. It’s a lot of time taken and obviously, it’s a lot of training time for our, for our team, to learn all these different software.

Just because, I’m not saying we’re only going to take because we’re a client, we’re only going to take a quick book. QuickBooks or whatever else, you know, they’ve got to know more than one bit of software, you know. And that, obviously, yeah in itself isn’t it’s yeah, it just soaks into those hours of chargeable time that we need them to do.

Laura: yeah, no, absolutely. And of course, I mean, obviously, I’ve brought this up in, I think, all my podcasts so far, because I think whenever you talk about technology these days, AI automatically just becomes involved in that conversation with the way things are heading at the moment. So obviously, where do you see AI fitting into the accounting industry?

Ross: Yeah, I mean, the word, you know, AI is, obviously, creeping up in practically every, you know, every conversation. You know, I went to various shows earlier in the year, and I think any topic that had the word AI in it was suddenly, you know, it was three deep at the back standing room only to listen to what people, people think is coming.

I actually think it’s had a bit of a benefit, and it’s opening up people’s eyes and realizing what needs to be done in our industry, I think. But it’s interesting, because a lot of what people talk about are these AI, these meetings and presentations, isn’t actually AI is more automation. And I think automation is, is what people are opening their eyes up to, more so than AI right now, which I think is great. It’s a step in the right direction, because obviously automation, the side of it suddenly gives makes us more efficient.

And then you start adding AI on top of that and thinking about what you know, what it can do, and what the possibilities are for it. And I think that we are going to see some really big changes. How quickly is going to be probably dependent on, you know, a few factors. You know, all of the software’s are out there developing and trying to, you know, to get their AI by Tour, or whatever, sort of into their software to help, to help clients. And you know, it’s going to require change.

It’s going to require, just like everything, it’s going to require accountants, you know, understanding, you know how best to use this, and you know where it can benefit their practice. But you know, we’re starting to see, you know, some of the benefits. And, you know, reporting, I think, will be infinitely better than it is now.

Looking at how we’re looking after clients, our insights into what we can offer them, how quickly we can review sets of accounts and sets of financial data, you know, looking at trends and everything like that, I think, you know, it’s, it’s very powerful, but it’s, it’s still quite raw. And I think that you know, trying to adopt some of this now is, is, you know, you certainly nothing’s a finished article, but it, I don’t know.

I could say Fast forward two years. It could be fast-forwarding six months to nine months before some of this takes off. But, yeah, we kind of, I think we’re kind of waiting around for people to bring things out in the market or develop things internally that are going to make, make that difference. But it will be efficiency. It will definitely be efficiency. It’ll be better insights. It will be a better report. And it will, I mean, it will be a big change.

Laura: Yeah, absolutely. I mean it like you said earlier, it’s every conversation, pretty much it’s coming in. The word AI, I mean, it’s, I think it’s a hard one, because there’s definitely still, I think, a long way for it to go.

You do see on the news, you know, things like, like a legal case, and you’d use AI to do a load of it, and it all turned out to be wrong. So there’s certainly we have to be very careful on how we’re using AI in that sense. But there are certainly great efficiencies that can be brought about by it, as you mentioned.

So obviously, I mean, I think you said there’s kind of a bit of waiting around, a bit of uncertainty of where it’s going to go in the accounting industry. Do you think accountants are starting to prepare for that change? Or how do you think they should be preparing for that change?

Ross: Yeah, I think the key thing is not to ignore it. Realize that it’s, you know, it’s here, it’s coming. Understand more about it, you know, understanding what automation is, what AI is, and what is being developed. Again, I know that takes time, but you know, we need to know about this. I mean, for me, you know, the changes that I think are likely to come is, you know, the typical bookkeeping service I think is likely to disappear.

I don’t think any bookkeepers listen to this, I apologize, but just when you think of what they’re going to do and how AI and everything is going to move into our world, I can’t see there being somebody manually or even using the software’s out there now, or spending the time they do on those transactions.

I just think that the whole process with automation and i is going to be is going to be done without having to do a great deal ourselves. So I think that’s something you know, within the next five years is sort of to be aware of. You know, it’s still early, and I think that the only way to prepare is to keep understanding what is being developed, who’s bringing out, what, how that’s potentially going to help. And learn, probably, from those that are, that are doing things already and having success with AI, you know, learn from others that are doing, you know, they’re doing some good things.

You can choose to do absolutely nothing and just wait for these software to come out, because I think they are. And, you know, I’m sure the software providers will want to get everybody using their AI tools.

You know, we’ve gone down our schedule a little bit of a different path, because we are, we’re working with some AI interns from the local university to actually develop what we’ve got, and see whether, you know, see how it can help us in, you know, over the next few years, and try and get our back end data in a good position to benefit from, you know, from what might be coming.

So, yeah, I don’t think it’s, it’s necessarily you’ve got to do too much right now, but just be aware that said, if you want to, I think there is opportunity to create some really good stuff.

Laura: Yeah, I think that’s a great piece of advice, really. I think being very proactive about it, and like you said, the fact that you’ve got aI interns and things like that, being proactive and on this. Because I think whoever you are, whatever you say, it’s not going to go away.

It’s, it will be something that it’s, you know, is going to take a big part of our play a big part in our future. So I think, like you said, just being proactive about it, and doing these things and making yourself aware is going to be really the key between who you are. Makes it, and who kind of gets left behind, I think.

But obviously, I think just to sort of wrap up, kind of looping back, really, to the start, you know, you’ve been in the industry since 2007 so, you know, it’s been a long time. Sorry to rub that in. Yeah, it’s been a while. Yeah, So if you could give some helpful advice to someone starting out in your industry, what advice would you give them?

Ross: Yeah, I think, well, I suppose, for me, it’s understanding what you’re, what you’re trying to achieve, understanding what, what it is that you’re, you’re looking to offer. What is it that, you know, you’re, you’re in the industry for, you know, if you’re talking about people potentially starting out in the industry in terms of, you know, setting up a practice, you know, what is it that you’re trying to do, if talking about people coming into the industry, you know, to become accountants, I think, I think the role of an accountant is, it’s the same, but it’s the same with technology bolted on?

And I think those people that are in the industry now need to accept that it’s not just, we’re not just accountants, we’re kind of accountants but need to have some IT knowledge, or IT knowledge around us. You know, have some great people with you that are going to help you through this, because it’s there and we need to embrace that, you know, and I think for a lot of people starting out, I think you’ve got to, you’ve got to look at those that have been successful doing what it is you want to do.

So if we’re looking at those that are starting out practices or trying to do that, you know, that sort of approach, you know, who is it that’s done really well? Well, and why that they’ve done well, you know, what can you, what can you learn from the other people that are already in the industry? You know, it’s like any you go back to the sport, you know, how do, how do the managers of today become so successful?

They go and learn from other people, and they do a lot of time understanding how other people coach and how other people, you know, get those successes, and then try and almost not replicate it, but take that stage further. And I think that’s kind of what you need to do.

You need to see what’s out there, understand how people are doing really well, and then go and then take that and drive forward from that position. There’s a lot of people out there that have got a lot of experience and a lot of opinions about how to, you know, how to grow the practice, how to do really well, how to succeed in this industry. And obviously, there are people that you just, you can learn a lot from. So I think that’s, that would be my sort of key, is to understand what’s out there.

Laura: Yeah, absolutely. I think that’s a great piece of advice. And as you said, it’s, it’s done the exact same way in sport. And I think it’s, it’s a great way, like you said, you know, see what, what? How people who have been successful do it, and then, like you said, you taking that step further is great. So, yeah, I think that’s about all we’ve got time for. But thank you so much for coming on. It’s been great to get your insights into hear all your experience and knowledge. So thank you so much for coming on.

Ross: No problem at all. No really enjoyed having having a chat and talking through a few bits and pieces there. So yeah, hopefully, it’s of use to somebody.

Laura: I’m sure it will be. Thank you so much, Ross.

Ross: No problem at all

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